Benutzer Diskussion:TonyMath

Hallo Tony,

bitte beteilige dich an der Diskussion zum Osteraufstand. Ich sehe nach wie vor keinen Grund, warum man dort auf Rebel Heart verweisen sollte, die Begründung müsste schon von dir kommen. Einen Edit-War wegen so einer Lapalie braucht nun wirklich niemand.--Nico b. 11:23, 5. Nov. 2010 (CET)

Hello Nico

The connection to the movie and song "Rebel Heart" is VERY relevant! It is about the history of the Easter Rising all the way up to an including the Irish war of independence. This is a 4-part BBC television series which has much to say about the important players like e.g. Michael Collins. How can you insist it is not relevant? This site mentions the Cranberries and U2. So how can you rule out the Irish expressing themselves on this issue either in film or in music? If my German is less than perfect, you are welcome to make it better BUT it is wrong to remove all mention of "Rebel Heart".TonyMath 18:49, 5. Nov. 2010 (CET)

Hi Tony, I am certainly the last one who would rule out the irish expressing themselves when it comes to their own history (even though the irish tend to have some quite funny notions about the easter rising in particular). I have said nothing about the BBC-production being relevant or not, thats a different question alltogether, I was only referring to the song. Have you read what Sharon of the Corrs had to say about the tune? "I wrote it in Malibu on piano when we were recording Talk on Corners. It sat around for a long time and then the BBC were looking for some music for their big Autumn drama about the 1916 Easter Rising in Ireland. It has a very Irish melody and we added the tin whistle and so on and it fitted the bill."

So this is just some piece of music written in malibu where they thought "lets add some tin whistle to make it sound more irish". It was not written with the easter rising in mind nor is their anything in the music that would that would hint at the relation. This is certainly not the best we can come up with when it comes to 'the easter rising in the arts', now is it? Regards, --Nico b. 22:51, 5. Nov. 2010 (CET)

Hello Nico

This remark is subjective (to say the least): Don't confuse comments about the composition of the piece i.e. how it was made with the subject matter itself. Those comments were made for fans of the Corrs. Have you ever listened to the piece? I can assure you: it is a very serious piece of music. However artists make their art, this song particular song was nominated for a grammy and it was accepted for the film. Anyway, I am happy to see that at least the BBC film is mentioned. I would like to add a hyperlink to the song since the wikipedia article for the Rebel Heart film is currently only in English. TonyMath 18:52, 9. Nov. 2010 (CET)

I never doubted it's seriousness. If you can provide some evidence that it really relates to the easter rising and has developed some significance in doing so please feel free to add that info and link to the song. All we heard so far is that it was used in a BBC-play that plays either during the easter rising or during the anglo-irish war. I asked for clarification of this point days ago without success, so I deleted that sentence for now.

We can not have sentences here like "in the time of the easter rising during the anglo-irish war", in the end we are still trying to write an encyclopedia.--Nico b. 00:23, 10. Nov. 2010 (CET)

Nico!

Are you serious? If you want to know about the BBC play "Rebel Heart": just look at the wikipedia article in English! It covers the period of the easter rising until the Irish war of independence. It's all there, right on wikipedia! The Corrs were commissioned by the BBC to provide the music, which they did! The wikipedia version of Rebel Heart in English provides all the necessary links! The "proof" as you call it is right there. You are merely being a pedantic contrarian.

1) It is always up to the one who wants to include something to present proof for what he wants to include, not for the rest of the world to dig it up.

2) Right there in the english WP as well as in the german WP a member of the corrs is quoted with a statement showing that the song was not written for the series, but "had been lying around for some time". Your so-called proof is exactly the opposite, it clearly shows that you are wrong here.

You are doing it again: you are taking a sentence out of context and associating the selective meaning you want to give it and then you penalize based on your out-of-context interpretation. No, you are wrong again. Composition of music does not follow the inspiration/cause/effect you mentioned nor is it obligated to work out that way. The music composed by the Corrs became part of the BBC series. End of Story. Many musicians used unreleased bit parts long realized before committing themselves to a fully fleshed out version later on. It does not matter whether or not, the Corrs had a basic tune before being commissioned. E.g. Beethoven's "heroic symphony" had Napoleon as his initial inspiration before he changed his mind. Again, you are being pedantic.

3) Even if it were as you state, it would be interesting to link the song to the easter rising, but not the other way round - you learn nothing about the rising or its perception from the link.

Both versions of the song rebel heart by the Corrs to have a link to the easter rising. You merely have to look at them! The proof of what I have stated is already in wikipedia for you and everybody to look at.

Of course they habe a relation - they were used in a film about the event. Like every song used in The wind that shakes the barley was used in a film about Urish history. That is no reason to list them in that article. We are talking about relevance here, and I still don't see that this song is by any means relevant enough to be mentioned here. Of course you can and should mention the easter rising and the film the song was used in in the article about the song, because that information adds to understanding why it is even mentioned in wikipedia. But linking to the song adds nothing to understanding the rising.

4) So linking to the song or mentioning it is out of the question. The series is another matter, but if you want to do so, do it in a way so people can profit from it. Placing the easter rising inside the anglo-irish war is utter nonsense, thats why this sentence got deleted time and again and not only by me.--Nico b. 20:25, 12. Nov. 2010 (CET)

You have a strange view of Irish history! Is it an ad hominem remark to point that you, a German I gather(?), are actually lecturing me, someone of Celtic ancestry on Irish history? I have read about and seen the movie "Rebel Heart" which traces the history FROM the Easter Rising all the way to the Irish War of Independence. Of course, the dates are different! But to say there is NO correlation between the events when history clearly states a causal effect between the two - is clearly ignorant of that part of history. It makes no sense! Why would the BBC series mention these 2 events in the SAME film if there was no relationship between the two? Of course, there is a relationship between the two as it involves some of the same key players! Like Michael Collins! Just read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Collins_(Irish_leader)

The teleseries film "Rebel Heart" is probably the most comprehensive rendition of that history committed to "theatre".

It is indeed again ad hominem to distort this to a question of a german vs. someone of celtic ancestry, and it is a ridiculous argument ad well. Does your celtic ancestry provide you with some special insight sucked in with the breast milk or is it the DNA of Brian Boru that works this miracle? I could argue on a much more valid basis that you shouldn't lecture someone with a master in Irish history about his own field but I don't because that in turn proves nothing.

What you argue against here is something I never said. Of course there is a link between the rising and the war, but the sentence you insist upon places the rising chronologically inside the anglo-rish war, wich is utter nonsense. This might be due to the fact that german is not your native language, but still I insist that this article at least states the historical facts correctly.

p.s.: I will not tolerate any further ad hominem attacks by you like "pedantic contrarian". If you can't argue in a civilized manner you might want to look for some other occupation as such manners are not welcome here.--Nico b. 20:29, 12. Nov. 2010 (CET)

The label "pedantic contrarian" merely describes your manner of argument. Saying that your arguments are ridiculous is NOT the same as saying you are ridiculous. Saying that you are wrong and outrageously so - is not an ad hominem remark. I do not accept the premise that I must remain "civilized" when I witness your personal censorship on ANYTHING mentioned on this site. I do not accept the premise that you can act as judge, jury and executioner. I took on the mantle of burden-of-proof when I gave the appropriate hyperlinks. I could have done more had there been a German version of the wikipedia article on the BBC teleseries "Rebel Heart". Unfortunately, there is not but I have already given all the reasonable proof needed. Your criticism is based on selecting certain sentences out of context and making some strange thesis out of it.

=> The outcome is that unlike the English or French or Italian sites on the Easter Rising in wikipedia, the German site omits the very important mention of the Irish-BBC teleseries and apparently, from purely emotional resistance by specific individuals like yourself. Quite frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on and I fail to see how on earth you could explain that omission. This is equivalent to mentioning Hitler and World War II in movies and theatre but NEVER mentioning the German film "Der Untergang" i.e. denying that the Germans finally came to grips with that part of history. You are denying the very mention of Irish expression concerning that part of history! It's simply wrong - morally and technically wrong. What you call my "ad hominem" remarks is simply an expression of righteous indignation!TonyMath 00:14, 13. Nov. 2010 (CET)

Once more: there is no resistance to mentioning the series in the article. What I and others have reverted is a sentence containing historical nonsense and adding no information to the article. Make a contribution that shows the importance of the film, why it was debatted so controversially, why it drew criticism from so many sides, and noone will say a word against that.

The movie "Rebel Heart" did draw controversy and more than a word was said against it. What it does is balance the notion that e.g. "Michael Collins" was a saint. Many Irish felt that he betrayed the Irish cause. This is one of the reasons why "Rebel Heart" should be mentioned, to provide a complete picture. There was no nonsense in the statement. Actually the last statement was written by one of your colleagues: one sentence mentioning the movie and its existence is not "historical nonsense".

BTW, hwo come you insist that a british tv-production with most leading roles played by english actors is to do with the Irish expression concerning that part of history? Shouldn't you reject this as the brits lecturing you about your own history?--Nico b. 15:27, 13. Nov. 2010 (CET)

They were not all British. Have you forgotten that Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain and that it has both Catholic and Protestant Irish feeling very strongly about the issue. Look again! E.g. the Michael Collins is played by actor Brendan Coyle who is of Scotch-Irish descent. The name "Brendan" is an Irish as they get. Many Irish actors like Daniel Day-Lewis have dual citizenship. Also BBC-Ireland played a part in this. Why do you an Irish group like The Corrs (from Southern Ireland) would have been commissioned for the music? Why do you think they accepted? Naturally, it expresses an Irish view.

Look Nico. I give up. Have it your way. We could go on forever and it has become clear to me that you and your colleagues are not even on top of not only Irish history but the very articles within wikipedia on Irish history! Every thing you have said has been "torn" to bits but the facts. If you are representative of the people "owning" the German wikipedia site on the Easter Rising, you have, by your reckless disregard of Irish history actually proven that the "people" in question are not authorities on the matter. Why do you do this anyway if you obviously are ignorant of Irish history?

Hello again. I saw the latest versions. I was surprised. I owe you an apology for having been so aggressive. I realize now that fighting for a cause can make you excessive.

Taken and excepted, no bad feelings. But let me be pedantic one more time, because that hurts: you wrote Have you forgotten that Northern Ireland is part of Great Britain. This isn't the case. Northern Ireland is part of the UK but not of Great Britain. Mise, --Nico b. 23:32, 15. Nov. 2010 (CET)

Glad you have accepted. I know the distinction but the southern Irish often refer to their northern neighbors as "British" in part because there is no "handy" term for a member of the UK and also because (from their perspective) they see little distinction between the UK and Great Britain. After all, northern Irish are in the British army and the first "B" in BBC means British but BBC-Ireland does exist :-) I am just being facetious. I am glad with the outcome. It is actually more than I asked for, TonyMath 19:47, 17. Nov. 2010 (CET)