Diskussion:Gråhund
The swedish Gråhund is the same breed as Norwegischer Elchhund grau. Earlier they where considered as two different breeds. (A simular decision where taken on the danish Strellufstøver and the swedish Drever.) I suggest that this article should be redirected to Norwegischer Elchhund. /Ascilto 15:09, 30. Okt. 2010 (CEST)
- As You write, there has been a breed with that name. That breed was recognized by the FCI so we should have an article about it. In our article is written, that the breed does not exist any more. Can You give us a source for Your information that it is considered to be the same as Norwegischer Elchhund grau? Anka ☺☻Wau! 18:00, 30. Okt. 2010 (CEST)
- +1, I have been trying for a while to find information on this breed (FCI 112), why it was deleted from the lists by the FCI in 1981 and what then happened to it. If you can provide sources, that would be much appreciated. Regards, --Cú Faoil RM-RH 19:51, 31. Okt. 2010 (CET)
- Since 1981 is a long time ago it's hard to find documents about the decision or the discussion before (I believe it was a conflict about the breed patronage, but my memory about this is vague). For such documents I have to go to the Royal Library or the library at the swedish kennel club (SKK). But there's several sources which tells that Gråhund simply is the common swedish name for Norsk elghund grå. In the links below you can also see some brief early history, from the 19th century until 1946 when Jämthund where devided from Gråhund. (The norwegian elkhond association, Norske Elghundklubbers Forbund, doesn't tell any history at all.) Unfortunately the texts are in Swedish and Finnish, but in the document Sveriges hundraser there's at least text in English about the history of Jämthund.
- Svenska Älghundklubbens Rasstrategi för Norsk Älghund Grå / Gråhunden, breeding strategy for the swedish elkhound association (pdf)
- Gråhund (Norsk elghund grå), breed information from the swedish hunters association
- Harmaa norjanhirvikoira, breed information from the finnish elkhound association
- Norsk älghund, grå, notice in the free online version of the swedish national encyclopedia
- Sveriges hundraser / Swedish breeds of dogs, about Jämthund, from the swedish kennel club (pdf)
- This is all information about the breed history from official sources that's possible to find for now. Hope it will help. Regards, Ascilto 23:01, 31. Okt. 2010 (CET)
- Since 1981 is a long time ago it's hard to find documents about the decision or the discussion before (I believe it was a conflict about the breed patronage, but my memory about this is vague). For such documents I have to go to the Royal Library or the library at the swedish kennel club (SKK). But there's several sources which tells that Gråhund simply is the common swedish name for Norsk elghund grå. In the links below you can also see some brief early history, from the 19th century until 1946 when Jämthund where devided from Gråhund. (The norwegian elkhond association, Norske Elghundklubbers Forbund, doesn't tell any history at all.) Unfortunately the texts are in Swedish and Finnish, but in the document Sveriges hundraser there's at least text in English about the history of Jämthund.
Sources and misleading links
Well, there is actually a very obvious source for the fact that Gråhund in swedish and Norsk elghund grå in norwegian is identical. In the swedish translation of the FCI-standard there is a short history part (everything else is off course identical), you can read it here (pdf, swedish).
In the swedish article sv:Norsk älghund, grå there is now a breed history written from reliable sources. Unfortunately Google Translation gives some really confusing results, if you try to read the text that way.
By the way, the external links in this article on DEWP are misleading. The dog on the picture is not a Gråhund but a Jämthund. And the so called standard is not a standard at all, but someones thoughts about the standard. The standards over time is published in some books and it's nothing like it (B. O. Jahnsson & Rune B. Samuelsson: Nordliga jaktspetsar, Västerås 1996, ISBN 91-534-1664-3; Malcolm Wallerstedt (ed.): Stora nordiska hundboken, Malmö 1966; Carl O. M. P. Leuhusen: Rashundar i ord och bild, Stockholm 1932). Regards /Ascilto 15:26, 18. Jun. 2011 (CEST)
- FCI standards are published (!) by the FCI. Only the national kennel club of the country of origin of the breed, which represent the country of origin in the FCI, is responsible for the development of the standard. Standards are published by FCI in translations from the original Standard to the four official languages of the FCI.
- FCI had a Standard for Gråhund and has now a standard for Norsk elghund grå. The standards have different numbers so FCI does not count it for one standard. So there are two breeds in the nomenclature of FCI.
- What's the problem whith if breed standards also are printed in books? I gave you some sources, which was asked for.
- National standards often differs from the FCI standard. One example is the peculiar poodle colours in the german standard, which are banned almost everywhere else. Another example is the Langstockhaarige Schäferhund. It's also common that breed names are different in different countries and that breed names are changed over time, as well as the standards.
- According to the Norsk elghund grå/Gråhund the breed was formed during the union between Sweden and Norway (on which there is no German article). The ancestor the norwegian standard was written after was brought from Sweden. The first standard was written in Norway 1905 and was for more than three decades the same in Sweden. From 1939 there was a different swedish standard. From that on the judgement differed between the countries, but the population where the same. Throughout Sweden, Norway and Finland most of the grey elkhounds has ancestry from all three countries, that's how it allways have been, and it has never been considered crossbreeding. The only thing that happened 1981 was that two FCI numbers became one, the population has all the time been all the same, no bloodlines are extinct because of that. The right thing to do is to write this history in the article of Norwegischer Elchhund grau.
- By the way, there hasn't been any conflict about the patronage, as I earlier believed. But there was different opinions between Norway and Sweden whether conformation shows was of most importance or if it was the hunting skills that was. Nowadays there is just small differences in the judgement left - the judgement, not the population!
- Other breeds has a simular breeding history. In the beginning of the 70's the danish Strellufstövare and the swedish Drever where united in a similar manor. You might also find a separate FCI number for Strellufstövare, but it's not extinct NB!
- Both Norwegischer Elchhund grau (FCI 242) and Norwegischer Elchhund schwarz (FCI 268) leeds to the same article. It's two very different breeds that never can be mistaken for each other! They have not at all the same background nor constitution. /Ascilto 17:37, 18. Jun. 2011 (CEST)
- Thank You! There is a lot of work to do. See Portal:Hund/Qualitätssicherung#Norwegischer Elchhund. Anka ☺☻Wau! 22:57, 18. Jun. 2011 (CEST)
OK, now we have more information in this article. The article Norwegischer Elchhund has been made into a disambiguition; Norwegischer Elchhund grau and Norwegischer Elchhund schwarz have been created and furnished with adequate interwikis. This was complicated somewhat by the fact that AKC and KC only seem to recognize the grey variety and call it Norwegian Elkhound. --Cú Faoil RM-RH 22:29, 22. Jun. 2011 (CEST)
ausgestorben?
Der Hund ist in der Liste der Haushunde als ausgestorben markiert, hier nicht (andere Haushunde haben das Kreuz auch in der Infobox). So wie ich das verstehe ist diese Rasse in eine andere übergegangen. Gilt der daher jetzt als ausgestorben oder als "gewandelt" (in Ermangelung eines besseren Wortes)? Lieben Gruß, --PigeonIP (Diskussion) 10:18, 11. Dez. 2013 (CET)
