Diskussion:Judith von Friaul

Brauchen wir diesen Artikel wirklich? In dieser Form jedenfalls nicht, höchstens wenn etwa die Überlegungen von Faussner zur historisch-politischen Deutung der Namen der Nachkommen dargestellt würden. Wir wissen praktisch nichts über Judith. -- Enzian44 22:05, 9. Mai 2008 (CEST)

Meist sammelt sich im Laufe der Zeit doch Einiges in so einem Artikel. Also erst mal abwarten, was da noch zusammengetragen wird. Cosal 02:16, 12. Mai 2008 (CEST)

Langsam vergeht mir die Lust, immer wieder Lösch-Wünsche. Immer wieder "Brauchen wir das wirklich". Sie war eine Herzogin von Bayern. Mit wem war der böse Arnulf jetzt schon wieder verheiratet ? Na sag schon. Und was wissen wir noch von diese Frau. Nicht so viel, richtig, aber das was wir wissen bitte kurz in Wikipedia reinklopfen. Ich gebe zu, dieser Artikel bietet nicht viel mehr als genealogische / Stammbaum Info, aber wieso ist das alleine nicht bereits ein Grund für eine Herzogin von Bayern ? Auch habe ich festgestellt, dass seit dem Start dieses Artikels an den Artikeln ihrer Verwandte einiges verbessert wurde. Sagen wir mal: Katalysator-Wirkung Paparodo 15:01, 23. Jun. 2008 (CEST)

Ganz richtig, Paparodo! Selbst wenn wir nicht viel wissen -- oder vielleicht sogar gerade weil wir nicht viel wissen -- gehören auch solche Kurzeinträge in die Wiki. Wo findet man sonst heraus, wer oder was hinter diesem oder jenem Namen steckt? Selbst die Tatsache mangelnder Details ist bemerkenswert. Im hier vorliegenden Fall kommt sowieso das traditionelle Ignorieren fast aller geschichtlichen Frauen hinzu, die in der Regel lediglich als potentielle oder tatsächliche Mütter männlicher Nachkommen und als Instrumente der Mitgift- oder Erbschaftserlangung für wichtig gehalten wurden. Jeder halbstarke Grafensohn hingegen, der irgendwann einmal ein Dorf niederbrannte, verdiente offensichtlich Druckerschwärze. --Cosal 16:27, 23. Jun. 2008 (CEST)

Danke Cosal, du hast genau das gesagt was ich sagen wollte. Und ich habe auch gesehen wieviel du an Judith + Kinder geschrieben hast. Danke nochmals. --Paparodo 00:36, 25. Jun. 2008 (CEST)

Name

Mir scheint, dass man diese Frau besser nach "Judith im Sülichgau" verschiebt, denn unter "Judith von Friaul" versteht man wohl normalerweise eine Tochter des Markgrafen Eberhard von Friaul, über die allerdings anscheinend sehr wenig bekannt ist, die aber auch manchmal als Judith von Balingen bezeichnet wird. Aber: laut Heinrich (Princeps Militiae) bei Genealogie Mittelalter heiratete dieser im Jahre 952 Judith von Friaul (838-863), Tochter des Markgrafen Eberhard, Enkelin Ludwigs des Frommen. Cosal 02:03, 13. Mai 2008 (CEST)

Marriage

I am sorry for writing in English. My German skills only permits me to READ the articles. Judith of Friuli (Judith von Friaul) is a confusing person. Depending on where you look her up, she listed to have been married THREE times, and had numerous offspring. What is strange, is that no single source seems to list all three of her spouses.

She was married to Arnulf von Bayern, Adalbert von Thurgau, and Conrad von Auxerre, and most sources list a combination of one or two of these. I was willing to see Arnulf and Adalbert as the same person until I found an Ahnentafel that listed BOTH of them as her husbands. If Arnulf and Adalbert is the same person, it becomes somewhat easier, and then we are just dealing with a name disparity.

Can anyone help?

Since you do not say what your "sources" are, it's difficult to comment. Here is what I know. (1) Judith was married to Arnulf I. von Bayern. (2) As to Adalbert von Thurgau, Genealogie Mittelalter notes for both father and son that their wives' names are unknown. (3) Conrad von Auxerre's wife was Waldrada. Cosal 16:36, 28. Feb. 2009 (CET)

Sorry for not listing sources. The source listing her marriage to Conrad von Auxerre (who was later married to Waldrada von Worms), is The Annals of Fulda. The Manchester Archives have those available. Further I would like to give you an example of some of the genealogies out there (yes, I am aware of the fact they are not necessarily verifiable): http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~havens5/p30058.htm.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_of_Friuli. Despite writing this on Wikipedia, I hate listing it as a source, so I recommend: Theuws, Frans (2000). Rituals of Power: From Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages,503 pages/page 225. It is available (for a fee) online.

(1) Sorry to say this, but these "rootsweb" pages seem primarily put together by people eager to "prove" their own descent from some nobility and are of very dubious reliability. Just about everybody seems to claim a bloodline to Charlemagne. (2) The German Wiki page to Konrad von Auxerre and the sources cited there do not mention any prior or later marriage to Judith von Friaul. (3) I don't want to pay to get access to Frans Theuws and so cannot comment on that. Cosal 20:25, 28. Feb. 2009 (CET)

No, but that only goes to prove my point. I actually state quite clearly that most of the "genealogies" out there are not verifiable, and are not to be trusted. The "rootsweb" ones are highly speculative, but this one actually happens to have sources, and that is always interesting to look into. The reason I posted this on German Wikipedia is that this is darn near the only place that has an article on her (the English version does not). Even if she is mentioned elsewhere, there is no consensus on her status.

It is possible she had no children with Conrad/Konrad (although I have seen a claim that Adelgunde was her daughter, and not Waldrada's), but it still does not give a clear indication as to when she had time to marry all this people. We both agree that she was married to Arnulf, and I am with you on the difficulties on fitting in Adalbert der Erlauchte, Grasf im Thurgau. However, their supposed offspring, the son Burchard I von Schwaben, has his own article on German Wikipedia that says: "Burchard wurde als Sohn des Grafen Adalbert II. des Erlauchten im Thurgau (825–905), Urenkel des Markgrafen Hunfried I. von Istrien und Rätien, und Judiths von Friaul (830–902) geboren." Interesting here to point out that English Wikipedia does NOT mention Judith in the same article. My point is NOT to prove she had one, two or three husbands (it would make my research a lot easier if she had but one...), but simply try to sort out to whom she was married.

To make this even more complicated: English, French and Italian Wiki says that Conrad von Auxerre WAS married to Judith, and the Italian and French articles says they had the daughter Adalgunda.

Confused? I am!

According to "Genealogie Mittelalter", Hunfried I. was married not to Judith but to Hitta: [1]. That article in the German wiki is wrong. Cosal 03:34, 1. Mär. 2009 (CET)

I take back my previous remark, I should have read more carefully to notice that it is not Hunfried who is said to have been married to Judith. But to add to your confusion, here is a nice link to another place that discusses the various theories or conjectures concerning the presumed marriages of Judith (it's in English): http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/eberh000.htm. This one discusses five (!) conjectured marriages -- and does not even mention Arnulf. Cosal 03:53, 1. Mär. 2009 (CET)

Thanks for the link, Cosal, it was most interesting. I really did not know what I was letting myself into here! If neither Engeltrude or Judith were married to Heinrich von Franken/Babenberg, it can open a new can of worms, since of his son Berengar's daughter Poppa was married to Rollon, thus the origin of the royal house of England. That - however - is a different story.

I personally feel her Bavarian connection is the most logical, based on the names of Arnulf's children (Eberhard, Ludwig, and Judith), but another possibility is found here: http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/beren001.htm (commentary section), where Arnulf's wife is a grand-daughter of Eberhard. Somehow I doubt this. In genealogies you often see how sister are mixed up, even mother and daughter, but and aunt (Judith) with a niece (this NN) sounds strange to me.

Also - I think Adalbert der Erlauchte has a good claim. However, this means that the Luitpoldings in Bayern and Hunfridings in Schwaben has the same ancestral mother - Judith.