Diskussion:Liste der Nummer-eins-Hits in Frankreich (2017)
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Téléchargés + Streaming vs. Megafusion
(Kopie von Benutzer Diskussion:HvW)
HvW, Ali1610 previously disagreed when they removed the continuing update of the download and streaming charts because "we have the overall megafusion chart now". I disagreed, and restored the way the page was, which is how it should stay until there can be a consensus (on the article's talk page) on whether to remove them or not. I disagree that they are no longer relevant. As long as they are on the page, we should update them. Then, perhaps next year, we can discontinue their use as long as we have the megafusion chart. As the charts still exist however, and they are already included on this page, they should be updated. Ss112 (Diskussion) 16:37, 23. Jun. 2017 (CEST)
- It’s definitely something we can discuss. I would have treated it like Italy 1997, but obviously M&D was never official, so the problem is slightly different. In Italy 2006 and 2007 I also listed both FIMI lists of the time. So I’m not really sure about how to continue the French ones.--XanonymusX (Diskussion) 18:05, 23. Jun. 2017 (CEST)
- If you look at the SNEP page it is obvious that they have two main charts: Top Albums & Top Singles. They are in bold face. Before February 10 all charts were in plain type. Also Téléchargés & Streaming are complementary charts. A couple of countries have two charts at a time, but no country has complementary charts plus combined charts. Obviously it was the intention of the SNEP to have one chart again instead of two charts, and not to increase the muddle to three charts. Okay, they are French, but even then ... ;-) -- Harro (Diskussion) 18:27, 23. Jun. 2017 (CEST)
- HvW is under the impression he doesn't have to wait to restore his changes or for a consensus because I'm apparently the only person who disagrees. That is not how Wikipedia consensus-building works. You wait until others weigh in and consensus is reached. You don't continue to edit war. Furthermore, the original commenter (myself) does not have to continue to rebut your argument--the Téléchargés chart predates the megafusion chart and should be maintained until the end of this year, at least. Not updating the chart makes it appear as if it has ceased publication when it hasn't. If you revert in three days' time, HvW, I will report you to an administrator. Leave the page alone until other editors offer their opinions. Ss112 (Diskussion) 00:38, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- As I told you I'm not willing to go with your sidetracking discussion. About your argument: there are 9 charts in all published on the SNEP page. This list is not about the number ones of all “published” charts. So it doesn't matter if a chart ceased publication or not. The sales and streaming charts ceased to be the “official” number one charts of France. And that is what the list is about: the “official” single and album number ones.
- Someone already mistook the download number one for an official number one and linked this list. So it is necessary to stop it now. It is not up to us to decide when we stop it, in February, at the end of 2017, or never. It is up to the SNEP to decide and we have to follow them as the standard source of the French charts. And Ali1610 has told you this as well. So we have a „consensus“ there. -- Harro (Diskussion) 03:06, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- I am not intending to sidetrack any discussion; I just said to leave the page alone until a consensus is reached. Two people versus one is also not a consensus, and Ali1610 did not continue to restore their changes after it was evident somebody disagreed with them. Anyway, you stated "it is necessary to stop it now", then in the next sentence you said "it is not up to us to decide when we stop it"... so which is it? At the beginning of 2017, the Megafusion chart did not exist. My personal opinion is that because we have started to list the separate Téléchargés and Streaming charts for 2017, we should continue to list them as the charts are still being published, otherwise if we cease listing them in February, it gives the impression those charts are no longer being published whereas they are. At the very least, if consensus is that we should no longer continue to update the Téléchargés and Streaming charts in addition to the combined chart, there should be a significant note on the page explaining that because the Megafusion chart now exists, it is no longer necessary to list the number-ones of the component charts. Is there any way of putting this note across the bottom of the Téléchargés and Streaming tables instead of just in the paragraph at the top? If this is about a compromise, I think at the very least we should find a way to put a note at the bottom of the tables making it clear it's no longer necessary to list them. Ss112 (Diskussion) 03:22, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- I have already given the example of Italy 1997 (same 1995 with the albums): there you can find a very clear note commenting the change of charts (which by the way was HvW’s idea)! I think it is best to follow that example, even if the situation is not identical.--XanonymusX (Diskussion) 11:30, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- No objection. Would be something like „Until February 3rd France had two separate song charts. On February 10th the SNEP introduced a chart list combining downloads and streaming that became the new official singles chart“? -- Harro (Diskussion) 23:53, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- I was asked to give my two cents about this by Ss112. Honestly I have never been too fond of these type of charts that have multiple separated chart sections (streaming, download, etc.), instead it should be one that factors in every way of mainstream music consumption. It's a bit too irritating to me but that's besides the point. I haven't paid attention to recent changes concerning the French chart but I endorse the idea of a Megafusion chart. From what I've read here they only initiated it a few months ago so it's still kind of an immature project. In my opinion, the article that includes Top Singles Télécharges, Streaming and the new fusion chart should remain like it is now for as long as the internet presence of the charts considers it official. An option could be to have two different articles, one for Télécharges & Streaming and one exclusively for the Megafusion chart while both include the albums section. Otherwise I think it makes sense to have next year's article be narrowed down to Megafusion & Albums chart. But then again, I don't know what chart SNEP considers the most relevant out of the three. Whatever one it is should be the one represented in the article. -- Lk95 17:56, 2. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- The problem is that we have both systems in one year: téléchargés & streaming in January and megafusion from February on. So two separate lists won’t help us, if we want to have all number ones on one page. But you referred to the SNEP. As I wrote above the SNEP highlights two charts on its page: Top Albums and Top Singles. And they started this in February. So for me it is obvious that those two charts are the “official” charts. The decision to “demote” the download and the streaming charts was made by the SNEP in February and the reader has to find this in an “official” number ones list from the “official” source. The more so because there are several chart sources for France and there is already a lot of confusion. As this are exceptional circumstances I think a comment between the tables explaining the discontinuity is a really good idea. -- Harro (Diskussion) 01:07, 3. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- Yes, in this sense the official website makes it pretty obvious that the two main charts of France are the Top Albums and the Top Singles; Top Singles Téléchargés has no more importance than the Top Albums Téléchargés. So all we have to do on this year’s list is to fill the void at the beginning of the year, connecting the current charts to the previous one(s), just like I did with Italy. We generally don’t include partial charts in the main lists; in theory they could however get own pages (like the Hot Digital Songs), I just don’t think that this would really be worth the effort.--XanonymusX (Diskussion) 03:36, 3. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- The problem is that we have both systems in one year: téléchargés & streaming in January and megafusion from February on. So two separate lists won’t help us, if we want to have all number ones on one page. But you referred to the SNEP. As I wrote above the SNEP highlights two charts on its page: Top Albums and Top Singles. And they started this in February. So for me it is obvious that those two charts are the “official” charts. The decision to “demote” the download and the streaming charts was made by the SNEP in February and the reader has to find this in an “official” number ones list from the “official” source. The more so because there are several chart sources for France and there is already a lot of confusion. As this are exceptional circumstances I think a comment between the tables explaining the discontinuity is a really good idea. -- Harro (Diskussion) 01:07, 3. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- I was asked to give my two cents about this by Ss112. Honestly I have never been too fond of these type of charts that have multiple separated chart sections (streaming, download, etc.), instead it should be one that factors in every way of mainstream music consumption. It's a bit too irritating to me but that's besides the point. I haven't paid attention to recent changes concerning the French chart but I endorse the idea of a Megafusion chart. From what I've read here they only initiated it a few months ago so it's still kind of an immature project. In my opinion, the article that includes Top Singles Télécharges, Streaming and the new fusion chart should remain like it is now for as long as the internet presence of the charts considers it official. An option could be to have two different articles, one for Télécharges & Streaming and one exclusively for the Megafusion chart while both include the albums section. Otherwise I think it makes sense to have next year's article be narrowed down to Megafusion & Albums chart. But then again, I don't know what chart SNEP considers the most relevant out of the three. Whatever one it is should be the one represented in the article. -- Lk95 17:56, 2. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- No objection. Would be something like „Until February 3rd France had two separate song charts. On February 10th the SNEP introduced a chart list combining downloads and streaming that became the new official singles chart“? -- Harro (Diskussion) 23:53, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- I have already given the example of Italy 1997 (same 1995 with the albums): there you can find a very clear note commenting the change of charts (which by the way was HvW’s idea)! I think it is best to follow that example, even if the situation is not identical.--XanonymusX (Diskussion) 11:30, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- I am not intending to sidetrack any discussion; I just said to leave the page alone until a consensus is reached. Two people versus one is also not a consensus, and Ali1610 did not continue to restore their changes after it was evident somebody disagreed with them. Anyway, you stated "it is necessary to stop it now", then in the next sentence you said "it is not up to us to decide when we stop it"... so which is it? At the beginning of 2017, the Megafusion chart did not exist. My personal opinion is that because we have started to list the separate Téléchargés and Streaming charts for 2017, we should continue to list them as the charts are still being published, otherwise if we cease listing them in February, it gives the impression those charts are no longer being published whereas they are. At the very least, if consensus is that we should no longer continue to update the Téléchargés and Streaming charts in addition to the combined chart, there should be a significant note on the page explaining that because the Megafusion chart now exists, it is no longer necessary to list the number-ones of the component charts. Is there any way of putting this note across the bottom of the Téléchargés and Streaming tables instead of just in the paragraph at the top? If this is about a compromise, I think at the very least we should find a way to put a note at the bottom of the tables making it clear it's no longer necessary to list them. Ss112 (Diskussion) 03:22, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- HvW is under the impression he doesn't have to wait to restore his changes or for a consensus because I'm apparently the only person who disagrees. That is not how Wikipedia consensus-building works. You wait until others weigh in and consensus is reached. You don't continue to edit war. Furthermore, the original commenter (myself) does not have to continue to rebut your argument--the Téléchargés chart predates the megafusion chart and should be maintained until the end of this year, at least. Not updating the chart makes it appear as if it has ceased publication when it hasn't. If you revert in three days' time, HvW, I will report you to an administrator. Leave the page alone until other editors offer their opinions. Ss112 (Diskussion) 00:38, 1. Jul. 2017 (CEST)
- If you look at the SNEP page it is obvious that they have two main charts: Top Albums & Top Singles. They are in bold face. Before February 10 all charts were in plain type. Also Téléchargés & Streaming are complementary charts. A couple of countries have two charts at a time, but no country has complementary charts plus combined charts. Obviously it was the intention of the SNEP to have one chart again instead of two charts, and not to increase the muddle to three charts. Okay, they are French, but even then ... ;-) -- Harro (Diskussion) 18:27, 23. Jun. 2017 (CEST)
